I liked your article and agreed with so much of what you wrote. I was in an extremely abusive marriage for over 6 years in my early 30s, then left him because he didn’t want kids and am now in a loving marriage for 32 years with a man I admire and respect. It turned out my husband had a daughter so that solved having kids for me and we’re very clear on what we each do in our home. I had a problem with your disdain of maga men, though. All the men I know who are involved in maga are respectful, hard working men with a true enthusiasm for our country. The liberal men I know tend to not be very masculine, are somewhat narcissistic and very self involved. Just my experience.
We’ll agree to disagree. I’ve had many experiences with the men I described. I have had a father, 2 step fathers, 3 brothers, 2 step brothers, a lot of boyfriends, many male friends, gay & straight, and 2 husbands. Many of those have been close relationships. Of course I have opinions about their behaviors towards me. Are my opinions colored by my interactions? Yes. Whose wouldn’t be? But if it makes you feel better to call me judgmental & biased, yay you.
I’m a husband, father of two, and an Australian living in Milan. I’ve always been fully involved — cooking, cleaning, school runs, bedtime stories, sports, the lot. I read pieces like this and honestly find myself a little baffled, and more than a little sorry, for the women stuck with these tired, outdated models of men. I don’t understand what kind of blokes they end up with, and in America? Seriously? There are so many honest good men, husbands, fathers… Maybe it’s the culture they’re in, where the bar for husbands is set so low you could trip over it. From where I stand, marriage is meant to be a partnership, from day one we shared everything. I have no interest in a book like Liars. Write about good husbands.
If you don't read about people you don't "understand," and you believe that one of the projects of the modern literary novel is to nurture and cultivate empathy, how will you deepen your sense of the world? It seems a little limiting to reject a novel bc you don't "relate" to the characters. No one would ever read Madame Bovary or Ulysses or any number of other books about flawed people if that was their strategy imho.
sorry i don’t go in for the fashionable jibes like ‘mansplaining’ and honestly had to just look it up on wiki to fully appreciate your insult… as for the culture.. it cuts across all borders and ethnicities, its the culture of the fucking arse head, i hate them and how they treat women and i have seen many, from varied backgrounds, colours and creeds as they say. and yes i am superior to them, me and my ubermensch bro’s… parading it though i don’t do much of.
As you wrote the following statement, you told us who you are, what you do not know, and have not the inclination to learn: "I don't understand what kind of blokes they end up with..."
You parade your sense of superiority, as you are, "...a little baffled by..." and, "...sorry, for the women stuck with these tired, outdated models of men."
One more thing, sir, cultures are, a prioi, ethnic. Clearly you assumed "they" were not part of yours, as you pondered..."Maybe it's the culture they're in..."
Good review--thanks for sharing. Aside from the main points, the Sarah Manguso quote: "My life became archetypal, a drag show of nuclear familyhood"--isn't that a mixed-up, thought? Is it an archetypal or is it camp? Put another way, if it's a drag show marriage it can't be an archetypal marriage. I don't think it can be both. It seems like a first draft that needs a little editing to make its point sensibly.
This was very thoughtful and well done. I especially liked this, "First, we wives bring on a lot of this “mental load” ourselves by virtue of our own higher domestic standards. " In my marriage (we divorced) my wife could never relax, take a break. That was my perception. Another perception, was a couple friend that had more than twice as many children as we did, and just 'gave up' on keeping the house tidy at all times. They wisely realized that with five children the house was never going to be tidy. Also, they drafted the children into clean up brigades.
In my marriage, I was as happy as I thought it was realistic to be, with everything that 'we' had to do. My marriage ended because of my wife's treatment of our adopted son. A whole other matter.
But I believe I did my best, as your husband seems to do. And despite how the marriage turned out, I have no regrets or guilt.
Also, I believe that modern feminism is largely to blame for the dwindling number of marriages.
One more thing, I don't think taking a shot at President Trump was needed at all for this review and article on marriage. Seems to be pandering to a certain programmed, IMO, mindset. Yeah, he's had multiple marriages as I have, but seems to have a good one now with Melania. You should have left him out of this.
A strong start with a really lazy deus ex machina. What a load of bollocks. It’s all “postmodern relativism’s” fault. Whatever that is, and however understood by this author, since I can’t tell. Apparently it’s just formless emptiness leaving voids in our eternal souls. Which are not actually formless, and which will return to their universal original shapes if we just stop worshiping the void. Or something. I throw up my hands.
Interesting take on Liars, which I enjoyed (as I gritted my teeth at the tragedy of Jane's plight and how frequently she tried to believe in the misanthropic John). I'd like to believe that most men are not as awful as him. Even if some are, I wonder if the predicament of modern marriage (the dissipation of romance in the face of unrelenting non-romantic demands, the crushing lack of time for self-discovery and renewal) is a function less of traditional gender roles (and their deviant offshoots in the manosphere) and more an existential economic reality. Unless you're very wealthy, there's just not enough time (or energy) to live a "good life." Or maybe that's a delusion -- the "good life" -- that strivers (and especially time-starved writers) use as motivation to keep going? The top of the Sisyphean hill. I don't know the answer, but I appreciate your essay for its thoughtful insights and reminding me of Liars, which was an enjoyable hate-read. -)
I liked your article and agreed with so much of what you wrote. I was in an extremely abusive marriage for over 6 years in my early 30s, then left him because he didn’t want kids and am now in a loving marriage for 32 years with a man I admire and respect. It turned out my husband had a daughter so that solved having kids for me and we’re very clear on what we each do in our home. I had a problem with your disdain of maga men, though. All the men I know who are involved in maga are respectful, hard working men with a true enthusiasm for our country. The liberal men I know tend to not be very masculine, are somewhat narcissistic and very self involved. Just my experience.
Your final sentences do not describe your experience.. They profer your judgements, your labels, and, ultimately, your biases.
We’ll agree to disagree. I’ve had many experiences with the men I described. I have had a father, 2 step fathers, 3 brothers, 2 step brothers, a lot of boyfriends, many male friends, gay & straight, and 2 husbands. Many of those have been close relationships. Of course I have opinions about their behaviors towards me. Are my opinions colored by my interactions? Yes. Whose wouldn’t be? But if it makes you feel better to call me judgmental & biased, yay you.
I’m a husband, father of two, and an Australian living in Milan. I’ve always been fully involved — cooking, cleaning, school runs, bedtime stories, sports, the lot. I read pieces like this and honestly find myself a little baffled, and more than a little sorry, for the women stuck with these tired, outdated models of men. I don’t understand what kind of blokes they end up with, and in America? Seriously? There are so many honest good men, husbands, fathers… Maybe it’s the culture they’re in, where the bar for husbands is set so low you could trip over it. From where I stand, marriage is meant to be a partnership, from day one we shared everything. I have no interest in a book like Liars. Write about good husbands.
valid point mate and i agree with you, and do read widely. just not Liars.
If you don't read about people you don't "understand," and you believe that one of the projects of the modern literary novel is to nurture and cultivate empathy, how will you deepen your sense of the world? It seems a little limiting to reject a novel bc you don't "relate" to the characters. No one would ever read Madame Bovary or Ulysses or any number of other books about flawed people if that was their strategy imho.
sorry i don’t go in for the fashionable jibes like ‘mansplaining’ and honestly had to just look it up on wiki to fully appreciate your insult… as for the culture.. it cuts across all borders and ethnicities, its the culture of the fucking arse head, i hate them and how they treat women and i have seen many, from varied backgrounds, colours and creeds as they say. and yes i am superior to them, me and my ubermensch bro’s… parading it though i don’t do much of.
Kudos on the expert mansplaining.
As you wrote the following statement, you told us who you are, what you do not know, and have not the inclination to learn: "I don't understand what kind of blokes they end up with..."
You parade your sense of superiority, as you are, "...a little baffled by..." and, "...sorry, for the women stuck with these tired, outdated models of men."
One more thing, sir, cultures are, a prioi, ethnic. Clearly you assumed "they" were not part of yours, as you pondered..."Maybe it's the culture they're in..."
Good review--thanks for sharing. Aside from the main points, the Sarah Manguso quote: "My life became archetypal, a drag show of nuclear familyhood"--isn't that a mixed-up, thought? Is it an archetypal or is it camp? Put another way, if it's a drag show marriage it can't be an archetypal marriage. I don't think it can be both. It seems like a first draft that needs a little editing to make its point sensibly.
This was very thoughtful and well done. I especially liked this, "First, we wives bring on a lot of this “mental load” ourselves by virtue of our own higher domestic standards. " In my marriage (we divorced) my wife could never relax, take a break. That was my perception. Another perception, was a couple friend that had more than twice as many children as we did, and just 'gave up' on keeping the house tidy at all times. They wisely realized that with five children the house was never going to be tidy. Also, they drafted the children into clean up brigades.
In my marriage, I was as happy as I thought it was realistic to be, with everything that 'we' had to do. My marriage ended because of my wife's treatment of our adopted son. A whole other matter.
But I believe I did my best, as your husband seems to do. And despite how the marriage turned out, I have no regrets or guilt.
Also, I believe that modern feminism is largely to blame for the dwindling number of marriages.
One more thing, I don't think taking a shot at President Trump was needed at all for this review and article on marriage. Seems to be pandering to a certain programmed, IMO, mindset. Yeah, he's had multiple marriages as I have, but seems to have a good one now with Melania. You should have left him out of this.
Thank you for your review!
A strong start with a really lazy deus ex machina. What a load of bollocks. It’s all “postmodern relativism’s” fault. Whatever that is, and however understood by this author, since I can’t tell. Apparently it’s just formless emptiness leaving voids in our eternal souls. Which are not actually formless, and which will return to their universal original shapes if we just stop worshiping the void. Or something. I throw up my hands.
Interesting take on Liars, which I enjoyed (as I gritted my teeth at the tragedy of Jane's plight and how frequently she tried to believe in the misanthropic John). I'd like to believe that most men are not as awful as him. Even if some are, I wonder if the predicament of modern marriage (the dissipation of romance in the face of unrelenting non-romantic demands, the crushing lack of time for self-discovery and renewal) is a function less of traditional gender roles (and their deviant offshoots in the manosphere) and more an existential economic reality. Unless you're very wealthy, there's just not enough time (or energy) to live a "good life." Or maybe that's a delusion -- the "good life" -- that strivers (and especially time-starved writers) use as motivation to keep going? The top of the Sisyphean hill. I don't know the answer, but I appreciate your essay for its thoughtful insights and reminding me of Liars, which was an enjoyable hate-read. -)
What an excellent piece! A real pleasure to read!